Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/19/1997 03:27 PM House L&C
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE LABOR AND COMMERCE STANDING COMMITTEE
March 19, 1997
3:27 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Norman Rokeberg, Chairman
Representative John Cowdery
Representative Bill Hudson
Representative Jerry Sanders
Representative Joe Ryan
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Tom Brice
Representative Gene Kubina
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 75(STA)
"An Act relating to the regulation of accountants; and providing
for an effective date."
- MOVED CSSB 75(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HOUSE BILL NO. 140
"An Act relating to the Board of Public Accountancy; extending the
termination date of the Board of Public Accountancy; and providing
for an effective date."
- MOVED CSHB 140(L&C) OUT OF COMMITTEE
* HOUSE BILL NO. 133
"An Act relating to regulation of architects, engineers, and land
surveyors; extending the termination date of the State Board of
Registration for Architects, Engineers, and Land Surveyors; and
providing for an effective date."
- MOVED HB 133 OUT OF COMMITTEE
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: SB 75
SHORT TITLE: REGULATION OF ACCOUNTANTS
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/03/97 211 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/03/97 211 (S) L&C, STA
02/11/97 (S) L&C AT 1:30 PM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
02/11/97 (S) MINUTE(L&C)
02/12/97 307 (S) L&C RPT CS 4DP SAME TITLE
02/12/97 307 (S) DP: LEMAN, KELLY, MACKIE, HOFFMAN
02/13/97 334 (S) ZERO FN TO SB & CS (DCED)
02/25/97 (S) STA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211
02/25/97 (S) MINUTE(STA)
02/26/97 516 (S) STA RPT CS 3DP SAME TITLE
02/26/97 516 (S) DP: GREEN, MILLER, WARD
02/26/97 516 (S) PREVIOUS ZERO FN APPLIES TO CS (DCED)
03/05/97 (S) RLS AT 11:52 AM FAHRENKAMP RM 203
03/05/97 (S) MINUTE(RLS)
03/06/97 592 (S) RULES TO CALENDAR 3/6/97
03/06/97 597 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME
03/06/97 597 (S) STA CS ADOPTED UNAN CONSENT
03/06/97 597 (S) ADVANCED TO THIRD READING UNAN CONSENT
03/06/97 597 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 75(STA)
03/06/97 598 (S) PASSED Y20 N-
03/06/97 598 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE(S) SAME AS PASSAGE
03/06/97 607 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H)
03/07/97 577 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
03/07/97 577 (H) LABOR & COMMERCE
03/19/97 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17
BILL: HB 140
SHORT TITLE: BOARD OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTANCY
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF BUDGET AND AUDIT COMMITTEE
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/14/97 358 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/14/97 358 (H) LABOR & COMMERCE
03/19/97 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17
BILL: HB 133
SHORT TITLE: ARCHITECTS, ENGINEERS & SURVEYORS
SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF BUDGET AND AUDIT COMMITTEE
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/13/97 333 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/13/97 333 (H) LABOR & COMMERCE
03/19/97 (H) L&C AT 3:15 PM CAPITOL 17
WITNESS REGISTER
TIM BENINTENDI, Legislative Assistant
to Senator Tim Kelly
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 101
Telephone: (907) 465-3770
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented sponsor statement for CSSB 75(STA).
CHARLES GRIFFIN, Chairman
Alaska State Board of Accountancy;
Certified Public Accountant
P.O. Box 670
Palmer, Alaska 99645
Telephone: (907) 745-3239
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSSB 75(STA).
BRADLEY SHAFFER, Member
Alaska State Board of Accountancy
479 Katlian Street
Sitka, Alaska 99835
Telephone: (907) 747-6984
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSSB 75(STA).
RANDY WELKER, Legislative Auditor
Legislative Audit Division
Legislative Affairs Agency
P.O. Box 113300
Juneau, Alaska 99811-3300
Telephone: (907)
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 140 and HB 133.
ANNETTE KREITZER, Legislative Assistant
to Senator Loren Leman
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 113
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3973
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 140 and HB 133.
BYRON HAYNES, Vice Chairman
Board of Registration for Architects,
Engineers and Land Surveyors
P.O. Box 196612
Anchorage, Alaska 99519-6612
Telephone: Not provided.
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 133.
PATRICK KALEN, Chairman
Alaska Section
American Congress on Surveying and Mapping
1041 Chena Ridge Road
Fairbanks, Alaska 99709
Telephone: (907) 479-2628
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 133.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-25, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN NORMAN ROKEBERG called the House Labor and Commerce
Standing Committee to order at 3:27 p.m. Members present at the
call to order were Representatives Rokeberg, Cowdery, Ryan and
Sanders. Representative Hudson arrived at 3:27 p.m.
CSSB 75(STA) - REGULATION OF ACCOUNTANTS
Number 044
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee would hear CSSB 75(STA),
"An Act relating to the regulation of accountants; and providing
for an effective date."
Number 067
TIM BENINTENDI, Legislative Assistant to Senator Tim Kelly,
Alaska State Legislature, came before the committee to present the
sponsor statement which follows:
"Senate Bill 75 would strengthen the application criteria for
taking the Alaska CPA (certified public accountant) examination,
which is given each May and November. It would not change the test
nor the licensing requirements. It is needed because of the
dramatic increase of foreign nonresident applicants who come to
take the test, but do not intend to live or practice in our state.
Many have no background in accounting. Concerns for the integrity
of our exam process and for the security of the exam itself
necessitates changes in our application criteria, currently the
lowest in the nation. Recently the state of Montana changed its
minimal requirements to eliminate the same problem."
MR. BENINTENDI explained that in the committee file is a summary
sheet showing the numbers of applicants, for the past two years,
who have taken the May and November tests. He noted there is an
unusual increase in applicants for the November, 1996, test. Where
usually there might be a few dozen who might take the test, it
increased to 506 for November of last year. He pointed out that
the state doesn't make money on the exams, but tries to break even,
so there is no real incentive for Alaska to be the testing center
of the world.
MR. BENINTENDI said the bill would add to the current requirement
of merely having a baccalaureate degree in any subject in order to
take our CPA exam, by adding a minimum of academic course work in
college level accounting or one year of public accounting
experience under the direct supervision of a CPA, or the near
completion of a degree program if the applicant is majoring in
accounting. All this is found in Section 1 of the bill. He said
they had originally hoped to address this problem in order to head
off the anticipated large number of applicants for the May, 1997
exam; however, in discussions with the Division of Occupational
Licensing and the Senate Labor and Commerce Committee, they
concluded it would be more prudent to address the problem in time
for November, 1997. Therefore, the Senate Labor and Commerce
Committee substitute shows the effective date changed to June 1,
from an immediate effective date. He noted that is located in
Section 5.
Number 280
MR. BENINTENDI explained in the Senate State Affairs CS, they
simply provided for those who have already passed at least two
components of the test to go ahead and finish their remaining parts
under the old criteria. That basically applies to instate
residents. Those provisions are found in Section 3 and Section 4.
MR. BENINTENDI said another provision of SB 75, unrelated to the
testing issue, is to allow the professional use of the designation
"E A" by enrolled agents. They are unlicensed accountants or tax
practitioners who are enrolled by the Internal Revenue Service
(IRS) to engage in tax related business. He noted that is in
Section 2.
MR. BENINTENDI stated the bill is supported by the State Board of
Accountancy, the State Society of CPAs and the Alaska Society of
Independent Accountants. He said it was his understanding that
Chuck Griffin, Chairman, State Board of Accountancy, is on-line and
also, Bradley Shaffer who is a member of the board.
Number 369
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG referred to information in his file and said, "I
looked at the November, 1996, examinations where it had 392
foreigners and then 21 out of state. Many times in statute a
foreigner can mean, particularly in insurance law for example, mean
somebody just out of state, for example. Is that actually off-
shore aliens?"
MR. BENINTENDI said it is nonresidents. He noted the Division of
Occupational Licensing anticipates as many as 800 or more
applicants this May.
Number 493
CHARLES GRIFFIN, Chairman, Alaska State Board of Accountancy,
Certified Public Accountant, testified via teleconference. He said
the bill is needed to do an end-run around any residency
requirements which we cannot impose. We cannot require people to
live, work or attend school in Alaska, so they have increased the
qualification requirements thus most of the foreign applicants
won't qualify. He noted the requirements aren't so high that they
would disqualify our Alaskan candidates. He said there isn't a
fiscal note for the exam as it is self supporting and is paid for
by costs of application and examination fees. The board supports
the bill as does the License Accounting (indisc.), the State
Society of CPAs, as well as the unlicensed accountants. Mr.
Griffin urged the committee to pass the legislation.
Number 607
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said he had indicated that the increased
requirements wouldn't be a burden to state residents.
MR. GRIFFIN said that is correct. He explained both at the
University of Alaska, Anchorage and University of Alaska, Fairbanks
most of the professional candidates are accounting majors have a
minimum of 24 hours, and in most cases closer to 36 hours, in
accounting. This bill would establish a minimum of 15 semester
hours. He noted most of the foreign candidates aren't even
business or accounting majors. Someone at University of Alaska in
the general business program will still have that accounting and
business course curriculum to meet the requirement.
Number 666
REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COWDERY asked what the difference is in the
requirements of a CPA and regular public accountant.
MR. GRIFFIN pointed out there currently is no provision in statute
for a public accountant. There have been provisions for CPAs since
about 1960. The "E A" class of accountants is a grandfathered
group which will some day be extinct. There are unlicensed
accountants and they are people that provide bookkeeping and income
tax services.
Number 752
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY asked if someone becomes a CPA is he/she
always a CPA.
MR. GRIFFIN explained there is required continued education. He
said he believes it 60 hours every two years. Beginning in
January, 1998, it will increase to 80 hours every two years.
Number 789
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if the influx in applicants for license
exams has been a burden to the board. He also asked if the fee
schedule has been adjusted so they can at least make sure the costs
have been covered.
MR. GRIFFIN explained the impact hasn't been so much financial
because they charge each person an application and examination fee.
So if they don't show, they make a little more on somebody who
doesn't show up and it offsets the costs of greater facilities.
Mr. Griffin informed the committee that he thinks the biggest
burden that is placed on the board is they have a single licensing
examiner in the division. He devotes about two-thirds of his time
to the Board of Accountancy and, unfortunately, he has been busy
with 500 to 600 foreign applications every six months.
Number 886
REPRESENTATIVE BILL HUDSON asked if it is required to have a
baccalaureate degree in order to be a CPA in Alaska.
MR. GRIFFIN indicated it is required and currently, that is their
only requirement. It can be a baccalaureate degree in any subject.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON indicated he has a friend who is a CPA and he
also has a son who has been working for him for a number of years
without a degree. He asked if he will have to go back to college
to meet that requirement.
MR. GRIFFIN said that is correct. He noted that is the situation
as it exists today. Since 1991, there has been that requirement.
Number 1016
BRADLEY SHAFFER, Member, Alaska State Board of Accountancy,
testified via teleconference from Sitka. He noted he has been on
the board since approximately 1990. Mr. Shaffer said he had the
opportunity to (indisc.) the uniform exam last November in Juneau.
He said there were three instances where the American Institute of
CPAs felt there were indications of cheating. One circumstance was
in a group of 30 people. He said when there is such a volume of
people, you can lose control. Mr. Shaffer said Alaska, as a state,
could possibly lose the confidence of the American Institute of
CPAs and lose the opportunity to administer the test by the state.
Mr. Shaffer said what is being asked for is not unique when it is
compared with the other jurisdictions in the United States. It is
part of a national process of all jurisdictions hoping to have
similar requirements.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said Mr. Shaffer indicated that we could possibly
lose the confidence of the American Institute of CPAs and lose the
opportunity to administer the test by state. He asked him to
clarify that.
Number 1241
MR. SHAFFER said Alaska, as a state, has to provide assurance that
we're administering the examination to the standards that are
required by the American Institute of CPAs. If we don't meet those
requirements, their action would be to say, "You're no longer
eligible to administer it." Mr. Shaffer said they do not want
jurisdiction to look at the CPA exam as an enterprise fund where
they are making money for the department.
Number 1148
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated there were no further witnesses to
testify and closed the public hearing.
Number 1248
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY made a motion to move CSSB 75(STA) out of
committee with the attached zero fiscal note.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there was an objection. Hearing none,
CSSB 75(STA) was moved out of the House Labor and Commerce
Committee.
HB 140 - BOARD OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTANCY
Number 1295
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee would hear HB 140, "An
Act relating to the Board of Public Accountancy; extending the
termination date of the Board of Public Accountancy; and providing
for an effective date."
Number 1311
RANDY WELKER, Legislative Auditor, Legislative Audit Division,
Legislative Affairs Agency, explained the bill was introduced on
behalf of the Legislative Budget and Audit Committee. It is a
sunset bill relating to the Board of Public Accountancy. He noted
the committee members have the copy of their audit report. Mr.
Welker explained Section 1 extends the Board of Accountancy from
its current termination date of 1997 to the year 2003, which is a
six year renewal period.
MR. WELKER explained Section 2 deletes conflicting language. The
language being deleted in lines 11 through 14 basically says that
a person who has served for two complete terms can't be
reappointed. There are some general licensing statutes that apply
to all boards that say you can only serve two terms, whether they
are two complete terms or not. If you're appointed mid-term to
replace somebody and you complete that term, you're eligible for a
second term and then that's it. He said they felt for
administrative ease with boards and commissions that the general
statute is adequate, so they are recommending that this language be
deleted from the Board of Accountancy.
Number 1396
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if this particular section, Title
08.04.030, is part of the accountancy section.
MR. WELKER said that is correct. This deletes language out of the
Accountancy Act. He noted AS 08.01 is the general licensing
statutes of the Division of Occupational Licensing that provides a
variety of general provisions relating to licensing of all
professions.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there is anything in AS 08.01 that
provides for a standard removal of members of any boards or
commissions.
MR. WELKER said he doesn't believe there is. He said what was
identified was that there is a conflict in the reappointment
language.
Number 1452
MR. WELKER informed the committee that Sections 3, 4, 5 and 6 all
primarily deal with one aspect. He said in each one of those
sections they are deleting the reference to an annual fee, annual
registration or an annual licensing fee. Mr. Welker said the
general licensing statutes of occupational licensing allows the
division to establish fees on a biannual basis. The language is
being changed to comport to actual practice where they do not
collect an annual fee, it is biannual. He said they are replacing
"annual fee" with "required fee." He said also in Section 3 they
have deleted the word "permit." The Accountancy Act, in general,
is in need of a serious rewrite because of the reference to
permits. The statutes reference "a license" and "a permit." The
board only actually issues a license and they don't issue permits.
He said it will take some thought by the board to make sure that
the rewrite gets the reference to permits out of the statute. It
would be best done by the board and an overall rewrite of the
Accountancy Act. Mr. Welker said that it was inserted in Section
3, but not throughout the rest of the statutes.
Number 1548
MR. WELKER referred to Section 7 and said it is a repealer of a
section in the Accountancy Act. This section related to the
issuance of a temporary certificate which has never been used. Mr.
Welker said he believes basically the qualifications that were
identified for a temporary certificate would enable you to get a
license anyway, so that has never been in effect.
MR. WELKER explained Section 8 makes the act effective July 1. The
Board of Accountancy is set to expire June 30, 1997. Without
extending the lapse date, they would have one year to conclude
their affairs.
Number 1595
REPRESENTATIVE JOE RYAN asked if the department is anticipating
increasing the fee.
MR. WELKER responded in the negative. He said it is the
Legislative Audit Division's proposed change to make the
Accountancy Act statutes comport to practice. It is across the
board. They went to a biannual fee for administrative efficiencies
of collecting license fees every two years. Mr. Welker informed
the committee that the division is under a mandate to be self-
supporting. On occasion, there are adjustments to the various
licenses and fees of all boards to keep in balance. He noted there
are a variety of boards that are satisfied and dissatisfied with
their fees at any one point in time because the costs vary
depending on the regulation writing and the investigations that are
going on at any given time.
Number 1663
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if the fee increases are submitted to
the legislature for approval or is there blanket approval.
MR. WELKER responded that the statutes give the Division of
Occupational Licensing blanket authority to set the fees by
regulation for all professions.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Mr. Welker if during his audit he came
across any instances of complaints. He also asked if there were
any license revocations in the immediate past.
MR. WELKER said he isn't aware of any serious concerns or issues
that are before the board. He noted he is sure there are ongoing
investigations as there are in virtually all professions. He said
Mr. Griffin or staff from the Division of Occupational Licensing
might be better able to speak to that.
CHARLES GRIFFIN, Chairman, Alaska State Board of Accountancy;
Certified Public Accountant, testified via teleconference. He said
the board is appreciative that there is recognition that they are
meeting the public's interest and are pleased the Legislative
Budget and Audit Committee and the Labor and Commerce Committee is
considering extending the board. He said he would note that he
believes the extension date was amended to 2001 in the Senate Labor
and Commerce Committee's version. The board has obviously been
involved in the sunset audit process. Mr. Griffin referred to fee
increases, complaints, revocations and some of the uncertainties as
to permits, certificates and licenses, and said he believes there
are a number of people on the board who would seek to rewrite and
possibly restructure the Board of Accountancy. He said they have
been struggling to accommodate all of their exam candidates and
"fight fires." He said, "We, as a board, have some comments about
the finances and stewardship of the division and some of the
investigation and complaint results, but those unfortunately aren't
on the table today." Mr. Griffin said they agree with an extension
of the board.
Number 1990
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Mr. Griffin if he has a preference for the
expiration date being 2003 or 2001.
MR. GRIFFIN said he doesn't know that the board has addressed it as
a whole. He said his personal preference is 2001. Mr. Griffin
explained he had heard a rumor that just because of the volume of
the audit work, they were thinking of going to ten year cycles. He
said he doesn't believe that is fair to the licensees, the public
or the board, that they be audited that infrequently to ensure that
the structures, finances and policies are in order. Mr. Griffin
said his personal opinion is that four years is a good cycle.
Number 1966
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said the Legislative Budget and Audit Report
recommends that the legislation extend the board's termination date
to June 30, 2003.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said the Legislative Budget and Audit Committee
recommended that the date be 2003. He said it's his opinion that
a lengthier period of sunsetting eases the burden on the various
committees in the legislature of having to come back too frequently
to revisit these issues. Chairman Rokeberg said there is an issue
about auditing and asked Mr. Welker to address it.
Number 2010
MR. WELKER since they started doing sunsets in 1978, they have been
on a four year cycle. In the early years of sunset, that was
valuable as it let them deal with things on the various boards. As
time has passed, the benefit gained by a four year cycle seems to
be demising. He noted at one time they did propose sweeping
legislation to rewrite all the occupational licensing statutes to
spread them out over a ten year cycle. That wasn't successful and
they have sort of compromised down to about a six year
recommendation. Mr. Welker said there are some boards that they do
sunsets on and if they think there are significant problems with
the board, they would recommend a shorter cycle. He noted with
boards, such as the Board of Accountancy, they don't see the
problems that they have with other boards. The Senate Labor and
Commerce Committee has made it known that they prefer a four year
cycle.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said if the sunset provisions are an automatic
kick-in of an audit, for example, if they go to six years, they are
only audited every six years.
MR. WELKER said that is correct.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there couldn't be an audit every four
years and a sunset every six years.
MR. WELKER said that language could be worked into the bill. He
explained currently, they initiate their own audits based on the
termination cycle and the review for the need to continue the
existence of the board. He said the four year audit cycle wouldn't
benefit him, but it might benefit the legislative process.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said when the Legislative Budget and Audit audits
the particular boards and commissions, they're merely auditing for
the needs for their extensions. He asked if they are actually
doing a traditional accounting audit.
MR. WELKER said the sunset statutes lay out certain criteria that
are to be considered and whether the legislature should continue a
board or not. It is not a full blown financial audit of the board.
Number 2158
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Mr. Griffin if that was his understanding.
MR. GRIFFIN said he supports retaining the four year cycle with
regard to the Board of Accountancy. In the absence of a broader
legislative look at the structure of occupational licensing in all
of the professions, some of the members of the board have become
frustrated with the process. He said they would like a semi-
private board operation rather than the existing structure. If
audits are every six years, it will only be discussed every six
years instead of every four years.
Number 2226
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said he thinks the committee is outvoted on the
four year date as it seems to be the will of the people involved.
He said he brought up the six year recommendation for the
committee's awareness.
CHAIRMAN RYAN pointed out that it is in the bill.
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said he would make a conceptual amendment to
make it four years, 2001.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said he would object for the purpose of
discussion. He asked Annette Kreitzer if she could shed some light
on the issue.
ANNETTE KREITZER, Legislative Assistant to Senator Loren Leman,
Alaska State Legislature, referred to testimony in the Senate Labor
and Commerce Committee and said there has been several boards where
an "old boys network" has formed and there has been concern that if
some of these boards aren't looked at every four years, there
becomes a situation where members of the profession who are coming
in from out of state, for example, may be excluded for reasons that
aren't very valid. They wanted an opportunity to hear comments
such as the kind Mr. Griffin made regarding fees. They felt that
auditor's recommendation was too long.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG withdrew his objection. There being no further
objection, he stated the conceptional amendment to change the date
to 2001 has been adopted.
Number 2327
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY made a motion to move HB 140, as amended,
out of committee with the accompanying fiscal note. Hearing no
objection, CSHB 140(L&C) was moved out of the House Labor and
Commerce Committee.
HB 133 - ARCHITECTS, ENGINEERS & SURVEYORS
Number 2364
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee would address HB 133, "An
Act relating to regulation of architects, engineers, and land
surveyors; extending the termination date of the State Board of
Registration for Architects, Engineers, and Land Surveyors; and
providing for an effective date." Chairman Rokeberg informed the
committee there is a proposed committee substitute, 0-LS0545\B,
Lauterbach, dated 3/17/97.
Number 2420
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY made a motion to adopt CSHB 133(L&C).
Hearing no objection, it was so ordered.
RANDY WELKER, Legislative Auditor, Legislative Audit Division,
Legislative Affairs Agency, came before the committee to discuss HB
133. He said he would comment on a few of the sections he feels
comfortable with and then he will let others testify on other
changes. Mr. Welker referred to Section 1 and said it extends the
State Board of Registration for Architects, Engineers and Land
Surveyors from 1997 to 2001.
MR. WELKER referred to Section 2 and said it makes changes to the
composition of the board.
TAPE 97-25, SIDE B
Number 001
MR. WELKER said, "...that is sort of a generic - one engineer from
another branch of the engineering profession. So what we've done
here is we've taken sort of a broad seat and we've converted into
a specific land surveyor seat, and we have increased the board by
one member in that action."
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said it has been the policy of most boards to
have an odd number of people because of tie votes. He asked if
that has been considered.
MR. WELKER said that section wasn't amended according to the
Legislative Audit Division's recommendation. It was a change in
the Senate Labor and Commerce Committee. He said the division's
recommendation was to keep the number at nine members. Mr. Welker
said the problem the division was trying to address was the
statutes provided for a mining engineer to be a member of the board
and there is a very small number of mining engineers which makes it
difficult to find someone who is willing to serve in that capacity.
He said the division has suggested changing the board make up to
have three engineers from any other field other than a civil
engineer. It would still allow a mining engineer to serve, but it
wouldn't be a requirement and keep the board at the same size. The
Senate Labor and Commerce added a land surveyor and kept the mining
engineer.
Number 090
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked if there are any engineers on the Senate
Labor and Commerce Committee.
Number 096
ANNETTE KREITZER, Legislative Assistant to Senator Loren Leman,
Alaska State Legislature, indicated there is.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted this is the third year that this issue has
come before the House Labor and Commerce Committee.
Number 214
MR. WELKER said another section the division dealt with in the
original version of the bill shows up as Section 8 of the committee
substitute. It is a repealer section. He explained that the Board
of Architects, Engineers and Land Surveyors is the only board that
has specific language that requires it to produce a report on
expenditures and revenues. The Division of Occupational Licensing,
as a matter of course each year, produces an annual report on all
boards and commissions. In that report, they present revenue and
expenditure information. Mr. Welker said it appeared duplicative
to have the requirement that the board do it when the division is
producing the information anyway. He said, "So we're recommending
that the responsibility that's now in statute that the board do it,
be repealed and let it as that overall general Occupational
Licensing function that they're serving in preparing that
information. Let that suffice for the language that is being
deleted here."
MR. WELKER said they had tried to, through the original bill, limit
the number of times an applicant could take the examination without
further satisfying some additional training or education. He said
he believes that is now reflected in Section 4. Instead of putting
those provisions in statute, it appears that they will be given
authority to do those type of changes, through regulation, by the
language added at the end of Section 4.
Number 194
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN referred to examinations and asked Mr. Welker
if there is a national engineering organization that has a
standardized examination to demonstrate competency by the members
being issued a (indisc.). He asked if that is recognized in all
the states.
MR. WELKER said those are standardized national exams.
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked if the exams are updated from time to
time.
MR. WELKER responded that he would assume they relate to the
current topics.
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said it would seem to him that if they were
using a criteria and everybody had reciprocity among the states,
perhaps we should standardize all the people in the professions and
facilitate the movement of people from community to community.
MR. WELKER said, "I believe that is where we're headed. What you
have now though is you have a lot of people out there with licenses
that were licensed prior to us -- to the nation and the professions
going more to national exams." Mr. Welker stated he believes the
current trend is to nationalize the examination process for many
professions. To a certain extent, the reciprocity statutes
attempts to grandfather people in by saying that the requirements,
when a person gets a license, have to be substantially similar to
the requirements that we had in place at the time. There is some
flexibility to allow that reciprocity to take place without unduly
limiting entry into the professions.
Number 320
BYRON HAYNES, Vice Chairman, Board of Registration for Architects,
Engineers and Land Surveyors, testified via teleconference. He
referred to Representative Ryan's question regarding written
examinations of surveyors and said there is a national exam given
each year by the National Council of Examiners for Engineers and
Surveyors. Mr. Haynes noted there is a also a state exam specific
to Alaska. He referred to the increase of board members to ten and
said the reason for the additional land surveyor is that the board
consistently year after year deals with a considerable number of
land surveyor issues and when a land surveyor's term expires and
another is appointed, there is no transition period. The reason
for having two land surveyors with staggered terms is to have a
transition period.
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Haynes if he could address the reason
for a ten member board.
MR. HAYNES indicated he couldn't address the reason for a ten
member board. He noted that in the past when there was an even
number of members present at a board meeting, they never had a
split decision.
Number 430
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked Mr. Haynes if could speak to the retention
of the one mining engineer.
MR. HAYNES said he believes it was brought up because of the few
number of mining engineer registrants in the state and the limited
number of people willing to serve on the board. Currently, the
mining community isn't in favor of getting rid of that position.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if that could be because of the increase in
the amount of mining activity in the state and because a larger
pool of mining engineers is becoming available.
MR. HAYNES said that assessment could be made
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there evidence to back it up.
MR. HAYNES indicated he doesn't have any evidence in front of him.
He said the Division of Occupational Licensing may have the numbers
as far as the number of registrants.
Number 494
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG referred to the exemptions and asked if the
language is all new language. He noted he isn't real familiar with
the statute.
MR. HAYNES said he believes Chairman Rokeberg is referring to AS
08.48.331 (9), which is the exemption for postsecondary education.
Currently, there is an exemption for a person who is employed by a
postsecondary institute to teach engineering, architecture or land
surveying. What they are doing is striking the land surveying
language.
Number 554
PATRICK KALEN, Chairman, Alaska Section, American Congress on
Surveying and Mapping, testified via teleconference from Fairbanks.
He noted he is the land surveyor representative on the Board of
Registration for Architects, Engineers and Land Surveyors. Mr.
Kalen referred to the idea of an odd number of members on the board
and said the board has had an even number of members in attendance
at every board meeting he has attended over the last year. The
idea of having an odd number means you have to have perfect
attendance of all board members. He noted sometimes people can be
absent for a good reason. Mr. Kalen referred to Section 2, where
a land surveyor would be added to the board and said the committee
has heard testimony that there has been unanimous agreement, on the
part of the board, that were the number of land surveyors there
are, the amount of business the board deals with and the problem of
transition clearly justifies adding the land surveyor to the board.
Mr. Kalen referred to the mining engineer position and said, "The
board has taken a position of trying to eliminate the mining
engineer position, but we also recognize the reality that there are
friends and we're attempting to work with industry to get the
mining community itself to say that they don't want to keep that
position." Until that point is reached, he doesn't think it would
be safe to take that position away. Mr. Kalen noted the member
that is currently serving in that position is an excellent board
member. He said there isn't currently a problem, but there could
be the next time a mining engineer needs to be appointed.
Number 693
MR. KALEN referred Sections 3 and 5 and said, "Those just basically
just arose because of adding the one member to the board that meant
that we had to repeal the part of statute that stated that we had
five members to have a quorum."
MR. KALEN said Section 4 relates to how often the exam is given.
The problem is that Section 4 is archaic language that was left
over from the time when virtually all the exams were prepared in
the state. The architects are probably the most advanced as they
have a new computerized type of examination that people take on
demand rather than a time scheduled by the board. Mr. Kalen
referred to the engineers and said, "All the engineer exams are now
national exams and so are most of the surveyor exams, which would
make them -- so that the language wouldn't apply to them." Mr.
Kalen said we have a peculiar situation where the statutes singles
out the Alaska land surveyors examination. It's a state specific
examination and it forces the board to offer it twice a year. We
do not have enough land surveyor applicants for the Alaska
examination to justify giving it twice a year. He noted they will
probably vote to not give it in the fall unless they have ten or
more applicants. The Alaska land surveyors examination would
probably last for sometime. All 50 states have specific
examinations because the field requires extensive knowledge of
local law and local customs.
Number 816
MR. KALEN referred to Sections 6 and 7 and said these are
exemptions in existing statute. He informed the committee that a
few years ago, a group of engineers representing the Mechanical
Engineering Department at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks,
pushed very hard to get an exemption for teaching, citing
recruiting problems. A lot of their beginning teachers are
(indisc.) Ph.Ds that have difficulties strictly obtaining
registration. He said, "At the time, we did not want or need
registration, do not have Ph.D programs in the field of land
surveying, land surveyors that kind of expect their license to be
their evidence of practice." Mr. Kalen referred to Section 7 and
said the teaching of land surveying was not included within the
practice of land surveying because 20 years ago when that statute
was drafted, there were not four degree programs for surveying.
Most states now have four degree programs and Alaska has a very
strong one.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked how many available mining engineers are in
Alaska.
MR. KALEN said there are currently about 44 mining engineers and
about half of them reside out of state. There are about 20 that
are available in the pool of applicants when they look for a mining
engineer for the board.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked what the board's opinion is regarding the
mining engineer.
MR. KALEN responded that the board has voted and gone on record in
favor of eliminating the mining engineer over the stringent
objection of one of the members of the board who holds that seat.
Mr. Kalen said, "There are strong and clear (indisc.) that miners
have friends in the legislature and we would expect to have trouble
with this bill as we try to delete the mining engineer position at
this time. I would like to add that me and Merle Jantz, chairman
of the board, have had several meetings with the mining industry
and have had surprisingly positive attitude come out of that, but
we don't think we're done yet."
Number 894
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG referred to occupational licensing and said the
statute requires that a majority of membership of a board
constitutes a quorum. He asked if six people would make a quorum.
MR. WELKER responded it would be six members.
Number 1020
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG closed the public hearing on HB 133. He informed
the committee he has a serious problem with the mining situation.
He said this situation has previously been before the committee and
he would like to get it resolved one way or another.
Number 1050
ANNETTE KREITZER, Legislative Assistant to Senator Loren Leman,
Alaska State Legislature, came before the committee to address HB
133. She said this has been a very contentious issue. When the
bill was introduced, the Senate Labor and Commerce Committee was
aware that various elements of the bill were going to be very
controversial. The mining engineer position and the land surveyor
amendments in Sections 6 and 7 were expected to be controversial
because of the different groups that have been involved. The board
members were asked to work very closely with the Teamsters. She
noted there is a letter in the committee file from the Teamsters
Union. The Teamsters have members who work as land surveyors and
Mr. Kalen can speak to that relationship. In the past, not all of
the groups have talked about what is best for the board and the
professions. Ms. Kreitzer explained the committee substitute is a
consensus of the Alaska Professional Design Council, the
Architects, Engineers and Land Surveyors Board and the Teamsters.
They all worked together and will continue discussions with the
mining engineers in the state to talk about whether or not, at some
point in the future, it makes sense to replace that mining engineer
position. Everyone has agreed to continue talking. Ms. Kreitzer
said she agrees that when you have 20 engineers in one specific
profession it creates a problem, but when they all live in one area
of the state it also creates some problems in trying to possibly
change the make up of the board.
Number 1155
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned what area of the state they live in.
MS. KREITZER responded Fairbanks.
Number 1186
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN made a motion to pass HB 133 out of committee
with the accompanying fiscal notes and individual recommendations.
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if there is an objection. Hearing none, HB
133 moved out of the House Labor and Commerce Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
Number 1218
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG adjourned the House Labor and Commerce Committee
meeting at 4:42 p.m.
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